Active, Passive, and other sorts of stuff

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: : : : : : And, of course, passivity indicates that you wait for the monster to act first. Redeemers do not, and cannot, act in such a manner and expect to survive. : : Two points - the trite strawman first. : : 1) What makes you think *any* hunter can expect to survive? The more passive creeds may last longer than the more active ones, but they *all* die, and sooner than if they had never been on the Hunt. : Trite, indeed. I would have expected more from you, Meehan. Perhaps hunters cannot expect to survive, but they do not abandon hope and curl up to die. Martyrs aside, most hunters can be expected to take some degree of precaution towards their survival. Not to mention having little or nothing to do with my original point. : (Besides, we all know it's only redshirts that bite the dust, anyway.) : : 2) In some sense, *all* Hunters (with the exception of Waywards) have to wait for the Monsters to act first, as they can only sporadically check for the Monster's presence, and so must wait for a Monster to reveal itself. How many ghouls walk past a Hunter every day with both parties ignorant, simply because the Hunter hasn't turned on his Sight (or Perception edges)? Hunters are *always* reactive, this is one of the inherent weaknesses of the Imbued. : Right. And reactive in a passive manner? I think not. : Let's take two examples, Jill Avenger and Joe Redeemer. : Jill uncovers a horrible crime, one committed by a vampire. What does Jill do? : She observes the vampire's movements, makes notes. Finds out where the vampire lives, takes pictures of security measures. She goes to a meet to pick up some disposable weapons, and spends an afternoon dum-dumming some .223 ammo. Then she goes and does her Avenger-type thing. : Joe, on the other hand, doesn't have it nearly as easy. He's got this idea that the vampire did what it did because it had to, not because it wanted to. Joe has to track this vampire as well. He has to find out it's name, and it's original identity. He has to find out where and how the vampire feeds. And then, he has to, without exposing himself to danger, get a message to the vampire, indicating that he a) knows, b) understands, c) wants to help, and d) would like to meet. Then he has to figure out how to stash a tire iron at the meeting place, in case things go south. : That is not passive. : : Again, you persist in perceiving "Passive" as a lesser thing, it isn't. It's merely the Anti-thesis to the Active Thesis, it's opposite pole. And in fact, to achieve a true Balance, and equal Synthesis, both Thesis and Anti-thesis must be equal in weight. And, as I've said before Balance is one of the keys to HtR. : Balance, perhaps, but your insistence that it is active and passive is a misrepresentation, I feel. I should say once more that this is a false representation of many of the Creeds. Joe is no more passive than Jill. Joe reacts to the same crime, just in a different manner. After all, revenge is a very reactive act. If Joe just hung out and waited for a vampire to come to him, as passive would tend to imply, he wouldn't last very long. : : I have never said, and in fact have repeatedly denied, that the Passive Hunters are less capable, or less effective, engage in a less dangerous occupation, or even less admirable than the Active ones, though I will admit to not fully understanding the implied worldview, as I don't think in a corresponding manner. : Hey, man, I'm just beefing with your terminology. Pick a different way to represent it, and it might work. Personally, though, I think the Creed Chart makes a lot more sense, especially since, if you arrange it ZEAL VISON MERCY, the creeds align in the exact same way as your passive to active chart. : : : Unless, of course, you're using a different definition of passive than I'm used to. : : Now, you may be right, I may be ascribing different connotations to the word "passive" than is common parlance. This has happened not infrequently. On the other hand, common parlance often misuses words, or uses them inappropriately. In other cases, I use more archaic or esoteric meanings than is normally the case (though not so in this one). : So, essentially, you're playing Aristotle. Define your terms so that you're right. : : Now you may wish to argue over the connotations and denotations I apply, as Michele did in the case of "Reckoning", but I feel I've at least been reasonably clear about which connotations I do not apply. : I feel that's what I did here. : : : Regardless, I think that passive is the wrong terminology. Everything is active, just not in a "kicking in doors and taking names" kind of way. : : No - not *everything* is active. Nor is every form of resistance. Or even every Hunter. To insist otherwise is unconsidered, and perhaps even unwise. : : And while "kicking in doors" is certainly overt action, I don't believe I've ever claimed it was the only one. : Let's put it another way. The only

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